Monday, June 12, 2006


A lot has been said about the role of the supporters in SA Rugby- also about the responsibilities of the current Administrators.

My feeling is that something positive should be done- not just moaning on the internet.

Your opinion please...



The need has been identified for the establishment of an independent Forum- which will be internet based-to which all committed Supporters of South African Rugby can belong to-as they are jointly with Government and the individual Rights Holders, the Shareholders and Custodians of South African Rugby.

This movement should be open to everyone in the way it conduct its activities- especially the decision making should be by referendum- and that over a period of 24 months this forum should be developed into a serious and creditable organisation- obtaining such critical mass that the other elements will have to take decisions IN consultation with the said Supporter Forum- on issues pertaining to SA Rugby.

(note- just an example)


An Rugby Union environment in which the South African Rugby Union is constantly competing for the Number 1 position- while still be able to assist the country in its social objectives



To create a Supporters Movement that will be SA Rugby Supporters above all Provincial and Personal Loyalties
All South African teams to play a winning and attractive type of Rugby
A huge ground swell support of committed supporters for Rugby Union at the Local , Provincial and International Level
To be discrimination free
To be drug free


Most Sporting bodies constitutions can be customised to fit this


1 Supporters
2 Players
3 Administrators
4 Owners
5 Media
6 Sponsors
7 Government


Supporter to be pre-fixed to all types

1 Youth/Juvenile
2 Working
3 Senior
4 Player- with Sub Classes
5 Administrator- with Sub Classes
6 Coach- with Sub- classes
7 Player Agent
8 Media
9 Corporate
10 Government


The SM must take responsibility in the development of a no profit volunteergroup from its own members – in association with a body – as ST Johns Ambulance- who will assist the local club scene with regard to first aid. This is for games of Rugby Union that do not have a first aid option at the moment.


The SM must create an online academy, which will cater for the needs of members and registered coaches- in order to raise the quality of coaching in South Africa at all levels.

An example will be to develop a system – Rugby Coaching System- that will be available to all registered entities- and must not be sen as over and above the obligation that vests in the formal structures of SARU, SA Rugby and the individual Unions and Franchises

All costs will be funded by the SM – out of the members fees


All supporters of South African Rugby are free to join this Movement.

There is a way to get the POWERBROKERS to listen

it is the way of the non-militant revolution ala Ghandi-
to be implemented as the Chinese did their long march- and to be run like the Swiss run their Country- By referendum;

but nontheless the organisation of the Supporters into the 1st Element of South African Rugby

That is Players, Administration, Owners, Sponsors & Media, Supporters and then the OMNI_PRESENT element- the Government.

I hope that Easter 2006 will be the watershed in the way that the Supporters are interacting with the game and the other 4 elements- especially the way the supporters accept the doings and screwings of Administration.

I again would like to make the call heard for all SA Rugby Union supporters to join an independent Forum- which will be internet based- especially the decision making should be by referendum- and that over a period of 24 months this forum should be developed into a serious and creditable organisastion- obtaining such critical mass that the other elements will have to take decision IN consultation with the said Supporter Forum- on issues pertaining to SA Rugby.

Orakel’s revolution is dead….



Not at all a compehensive start-up charter- but a start to a discussion that is dear to me

Pls take note- this is not to replace any structure- as it has been spinned in the past- just to ensure that

The supporters get off their backsides and participate-

and to rock the bubble of those who think that the South african Rugby Environment is their own personal booty to loot.

If this can be made to be working- the BIG Stakeholders- ea Government- Vodacom Sail etc might even have a better return than before.

Do they really know what all their underlings are up too?
Welcome back OO
Still havent had a chance to read the entire post but will do soon.

Clayton- like the face!

Pls do

Your opinion will be appreciated.
I think this is the best supporter-based interaction proposal I've ever heard.
Any and all critisism would then be displayed on the site and the RIGHT people would notice! Likewise would any good advice and complements regarding certain decisions.
But whether or not the right people would want to have the public's view influence their decisions, is another question.
I particularly liked the idea of the online training. That really has potential. Especially when coaching workshops are concerned. Traveling and housing don't become issues, since the site is there for training as well.
Thanks BloemBull

Appreciate your contribution

I surely hope that some of the other posters- will also join in this- so that something constructive can realise-

but you are quite right- some decision makers and their PerceptionSpinners might not be amused.
Okay OO I just had a short read.

I like the charter.

There are a few things we need to look at though.

I'll get back with ideas.


Thanks DavidS

Will look with anticipation to your inputs
If anyone have problems posting on this site or want to boance ideas off-line- pls mail me at

I take it the "drug-free" part doesn't preclude us from drinking alcohol?

No Rob

That will be under a heading of security- crowd control etc

That one is for drug free players

The plan is to get this draft onto a wiki- so that all interested parties can edit and add

Hence the telegraph style

Hope you will add a lot of the Last Outpost Club Scene - best practises here.
membership fees can be copied from the Force structure


Not sure how this should affect the voting-

1 member - one supporter- 1 vote?
Anyone have the latest version of the South african Fitness Charter yet?
Howsit OO

Just finished reading it,think i need to go over it again...just to get a proper grasp but like i said earlier i like the way it sounds and i would fully support the idea.

Question is,how do you intend getting the idea out to the masses?

Got any ideas yet?

The first issue is to get an interactive home for the Draft Charter.

Then it must go through a phase of extreme and constant discussion- on what is needed and what solutions will work and what of those workable solutions is attainable over the short medium and long term

I was hoping to get acceptance from Ruggaworld to host an interactive wiki- and still is of the opinion that it is a site with an independent mindset.

It just seems that i have failed to convice the RW Board members of the possibilities of this issue.

Once the Charter is mature and ready for distribution- a rollout strategy will have to be devised.

Mind you- the mention of the Chinese long march is not without reason. For this Movement to materialise and to be accepted by a large number of supporters- a lot of smart work still need to be done- and yes it will take time.

Time that the PerceptionSpinners will utilise well
Love the idea of Medical support. There is a huge need for that, as schools and clubs do not take it serious, maybe include training of teachers/coaches in the seriousness of proper first aid, so that they won't play, if no first aid is available.

Another thing we might add, is to develop an interest in the rural and black communities. Only way transformation will succeed, is if we get a proper plan in place, not window dressing.

Anyway, will be back with more idea, as soon as I have more time.
Agree Aldo

Keep it coming.
Hey OO,

Its always great when a passionate rugby man wants to do something to add value to the game - for that I salute you.

Transparency has been a buzzword in rugby administration for a long time, so any initiative that can demonstrate that particular trait in a consistent and meaninful way can provide a way forward for our sporting bodies.

The other areas that immeadiately grab my attention as value adds, are the medical support proposal which Aldo commented on and the overall idea that the average rugby support can in some way make a meaninful contribution, hopefully this initiative will help more supporters becoming solution focused rather than problem focused.

My suggestion would be to find even more areas that can be a tangible value add short term, something that can be visible and measurable where people can say - that movement has a lot of talk AND action! The online coaching manual you spoke of springs to mind.
Thanks TG

I really appreciated that input

Being positively involved on the field is no longer an option for me as a player- and I lack the in depth knowledge that people like yourself Bruce Ross, Nick Tat, PhilipDC and other people close to the game has aquired over a period of time- but if the start of this can have a positive influence on how the SA rugby supporters can tackle the multiple challenges- facing South African Rugby- head-on and embrace the solutions that may be on the table- then this effort will have been more than worthwile.
Sponsorships for the cultivation of a core of competent referees would also be a good initiative.

The golden oldie games- that everyone remembers so fondly- can be analysed with modern technology and then discussed via podcasting within the context of the then and now rules
While googling Sport Clubs constitutions- I came across this site

Interesting comments - kind of a declaration


Advisory booklet on forming a sports club: A guide to a club constitution.

This advisory booklet has been prepared in response to frequent requests received by sportscotland for advice on how groups of individuals can form a properly constituted Club.

A Constitution should be a very simple document which aims to ensure the smooth working of a Club.

Difficulty may arise when one tries to put what amounts to common sense into clear words. The Sample Constitution in this booklet is one way of achieving this.

This is a very basic version of a Constitution and as the Club grows new issues will arise which need to be formalised, but beware – some organisations spend more time changing the Constitution than participating in their sport. Leave any problems for the Club's Executive Committee to solve.

It should be emphasised that this Sample Constitution is not intended for a Club which owns significant assets or operates a professional sport.



"Difficulty may arise when one tries to put what amounts to common sense into clear words."

So it seems that contextually challenged people are everywhere.
Now this is something that must be supported and helped along by applying positive pressure on your Local Government and its Councilors


Editor: Editor

The extent to which the Department's four major programmes are informed and synchronised with the principles of the National Spatial Development Perspective (NSDP), is expected to accelerate provision of essential basic services - using sport. The Mass Participation Programme (MPP), school sport activities and the LoveLife Games can be considered to be “basic service provision” activities serving South Africans wherever they are needed. The majority of these projects are located in the Presidential and high crime nodes. In a sense these programmes contribute to the reconfiguration of apartheid spatial alignments to the extent that sport and recreation activities tend to predominate in the advantaged, largely white suburbs, while very few activities take place in the disadvantaged, predominantly black suburbs. Facilities provision is similarly skewed. Cognisance has been taken of population migration patterns to areas with greater economic potential. This is being factored into the planning process for facility provision in the areas to which people are aggregating. SRSA is in touch with the Department of Housing, advocating for the provision of open recreational spaces and sports facilities in the planning of human settlements and for making provision for such amenities in existing settlements where they are lacking. The sport and recreation facility provision programme, a part of social infrastructure provision, is focused on the disadvantaged areas to eliminate the backlogs in those areas that also contributed to skewing the access to and representivity in sports teams at all levels. The programme has, however, been re-located to the Municipal Infrastructure Grant (MIG) programme of the Department of Provincial and Local Government (DPLG). The MPP is intended to provide access to participation for the South African masses, especially those who have not enjoyed the privilege before. In the same vein, investment in school sport is intended to rekindle activities on a mass basis, as well as to selected learners who compete at a higher level. This cannot be confined to certain areas. These services must be provided to citizens wherever they are, but in line with the demographic spread of people across the country. The LoveLife Games are, similarly, intended to promote mass participation opportunities at the regional level and uses sport as a medium to create awareness of the dangers of HIV and AIDS wherever it manifests itself. The National Academy programme, in the way it is currently configured, provides support to elite athletes preparing for international participation and constitutes a form of specialised support that does not align easily with the national spatial perspective principles. The existing academies are confined to the urban areas and athletes from the rural areas are required to move there to benefit from the services offered. It is intended to establish satellite academies in the rural areas when the necessary resources become available.


The Government has now acknowledged the vital role that sports clubs play in our society in promoting social and community inclusiveness and, more particularly, health through regular exercise. Historically, this significant contribution has not been recognised through the tax system which, if anything, has hindered the development of sports clubs. Young people are increasingly losing interest in sport after they leave the education system. Local sports clubs established on a sound financial basis can help reverse this decline in participation.

The voluntary sports clubs sector has historically suffered from a lack of both cash and adequate facilities despite the valuable efforts of thousands of volunteers. Following Government and Charity Commission consultation in 2001, we have now entered a new era for the amateur sports club, which can now take advantage of valuable new tax relief’s by registering either:
as a charity, with the Charity Commission (the inland Revenue in Scotland and Northern Ireland) or
as a Community Amateur Sports Club (CASC) with the Inland Revenue.


To qualify as a charity, a club must promote community participation in Healthy recreation by providing facilities for playing particular sports

To qualify as a CASC, a club must, as its main purpose, provide facilities for and promote participation in one or more eligible sports.

There is a subtle distinction between these two definitions. In the first case, the provision of sports facilities is a means to an end, ie. the promotion of community participation in healthy recreation, and in the second case, the club constitution should have the appropriate objective, ie. in the case of a charity, “the promotion of community participation in healthy recreation by the provision of facilities for playing (sport)”, and in the case of a CASC, “the provision of facilities for and encouragement of participation (in one or more eligible sports)”.
In terms of the activities that qualify, there are over 100 eligible sports listed by the Inland Revenue; healthy sports for charity registration are not the same. They must be judged in terms of promoting health and some, such as angling, ballooning, crossbow, rifle and pistol shooting, flying, gliding, motor sports and parachuting (in one or more eligible)”.
For both packages, membership must be open to the whole community without discrimination and with affordable membership fees. The facilities should be available to all, giving broadly the same treatment to less skilful and less competitive players.
In both cases, must be amateur, which means that players cannot be paid but expenses can be reimbursed. A player/coach can be paid.
Distribution to members are not allowed; surplus must be re-invested in the club. In the case of a CASC, any net assets on dissolution must be applied for approved community sporting or charitable purposes. A charitable club must apply its assets for charitable purposes only.
Charitable sports clubs cannot have a separate group of social members as members; they must all be players or helpers. CASCs can have social members provided broadly they are in a minority.
Charitable clubs should generally run bars through separate non-charitable clubs or companies (which can have social members), whereas a CASC can run a bar as a social adjunct to the provision of its sporting facilities.
CASCs must register with the Inland Revenue Sports Club Unit in Edinburgh, which administers and monitors the new system. Charitable clubs in England and Wales should register with the Charity Commission. Their tax affairs will be dealt with by the Inland Revenue office in Bootle, Merseyside. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, registration is with the Inland Revenue (Edinburgh and Bootle respectively)
No particular registrations are required for clubs that decide not to take advantage of either the CASC or charity packages.

Club responsibilities under charity law in terms of the management of its affairs, accounting and reporting to the Charity Commission are in general more onerous under the charity route than under the CASC tax relief package.
Why is everything centered and the comment window so small, or is it just me???

On the issue above. I think everyone knows that I am one of those people that believe rugby is run in this country as some secret society, and that the powers that be adopted a peanuts and monkey attitude towards the supproters of the game, hell even the players.

Over the last couple of months a lot of suggestions has be put forward on how supporters can get more involved. Everyone of them had some seriously good points and they are always well motivated.

It has been mentioned above that we as supproters will strugle because of the closed door policy of SA Rugby and Saru, and their administrators and coaches.

It is a 'everyone for themselves' type attitude and everyone is holding their hands close to their chest so the next guy has no clue as to his plans, his reasons and the feasibility of the inner workings of coaches or administrators.

Secondly, there are millions of rands involved in SA Rugby, I fear that the powers that be would rather try and increase, or find new ways to strengthen this hold they have in SA Rugby for as long as possible and 'no matter what it takes', simply because of the risks they, as a group, or individuals will put themselves under by exposing rugby to the masses in ways as suggested above.

Unfortunately, the masses have the sheep mentality/attitude where they simply follow and do not care or has no interest in changing things they perceive to be in perfect working order, yet they are the first one's to bitch and moan when something goes wrong.

I would suggest that we firstly look at how we can improve our pedigree as an organisation by getting 'experts' to commit to something like this.

Whether this be on a coaching, medical, administrative, accounting, law, etc. field, so the organisation will come forward as being extremely credible.

Secondly, before we try to convince the masses to join, I believe we need to investigate the viability of this withing our own communities, clubs and unions - to simply see how they perceive or adopt such a step or organisation.

It could start of with one guy, or one team, or one union accepting a charter and organisation like this that could instigate and then snowball into something all the other will join.

Lets say we can get Rassie Erasmus and the Freestate rugby union to buy into this, it would be just the thing for other unions, and the masses to take notice of what is being done, or what we are trying to achive, for people to realise the importance of this.

Almost using the sheep-mentality on them so to speak.

For a start, I would think we need to get the legal aspect of this in order and get our ducks in a row from this point of view first.

Then we need a constitution and the levels we are looking to cater for, medical, coaching, etc.

WE simply work out a plan we can present to any union, or administrative body to review, and after we get a go-ahead from them, we approach the fans as to the Western Force approach OO eluded to.

In short (hehehehe), I always have, and always will support initiatives like this, and it is time we get organised, because it is always just all talk, and no action, so lets see who is willing to commit?!
Howzit PA

I agree with your take- on getting known specialists to endorse- after all the indicated issues has been sorted.

one area where I do not agree with you is to get a current Rugby Union- ea Cheetahs to endorse the Supporters Movement- they will just tell you that they already have a supporters club

Point is- the Supporters- read consumers, are an integral part of what is needed to make the Rugby Union world go round.

Therefore- a movement- or Union that will harness the collective input of the Supporters needs to be independent of the SARU structures

Hence the need to index the classes of supporters.

Both Hoskins and BvR are South Afican Rugby Supporters-and should have the right to be a member of such an Initiative- point is members should not be able to use undue influence over decision making in oder to obtain personal gain- that is contra the "common good"
Sounds like you we are talking about creating a "Supporters Union", the same way the "Players union" exists...??
yes PA

One collective- embarcing all South African Rugby fans

accross provincial bounderies

Independent from SARU

Independent from the Sponsors

Independent from the owners

dependent on the Supporters- growing the Supporters input and therefore the game
Great initiative. There is one thing I would like to be in the charter and that is for Aim (or at least one of them) to have the vaious governng bodies of rugby in SA, particularly SARU, accountable for their bad decisions and to have true transparency.

The big stumbling block to overcome is getting the movement to be taken seriously by the powers that be, which means that rugby fans need to get involved en masse and we allknow what sa rugby fans are like. They only get out of their arm chairs to get another beer from the fridge.
Hehehe Ollie

Ja- sitting on your ass and typing obsceneties is not going to do it.

But first we must take ourselves seriously- and do the right things for the right reasons- then

all the supporters must realise what their true worth and value in this whole setup is

Still- at all stages must we not lose sight that this movement/Union must be transparent and creating positive solutions fro the Rugby problems close to the Supporter.

Unless we have 30000 members- which will not happen overnight- we will not be included in the decision making that counts.
Same Comment that I made to Nick - Keep Blog header threads to about 1 page. If you have a lot to say, break it into smaller topics.

I have a problem with the Scope of your endeavour. Like it or not Sarfu is our representatitve and we do pay them as supporters to give us the collective answers. Now as individuals we may not agree with that, bu the Group in general undoubtly does.

Your idea of a collective fund is applealing, because it will give us the ability to make a difference. However, have no doubt that as the group grows it too will ahve an agneda that widens further from the wishes of the individuals (I menad I don;t even vore for the ANC, but I must accpet MBeki as the president.

Personally I feel :

You should narrow the scope of what you are trying to do;
Focus on the Collection of the monthly fee;
Use a forum like Ruggaword to do so.
posted on behalf of Methos


Pissant - I would say yes, the idea would be to create a supporters Union much like Cosatu & Satawu. The thing that would be most important would be to get as much members as possible. Without numbers this will be a fart in the wind. Sarfu\Saru has always been a closed book for Supporters. Everybody's interests are catered for except the Supporters, and they forget that we are the ones that keep them alive. Without supporters rugby at say Newlands would be much like club rugby at the moment. 30 sweaty guys fighting over a ball with only friends and family to watch.

The system that is in place at the moment is clearly not working. Clubs select representatives to the Union, then reps get selected from them and so forth. By the time you get to the top clubs and their interests have fallen out of the bus. Now it is all for power. Jobs for buddies and shady deals struck in dark alleys are the norm.

What is required is a watchdog system, someone to keep them on their toes and never to let them forget who are the important ones in rugby. If there are incidents like our previous President Brian Van Rooyen there must be a way for the supporters to voice their dissatisfaction. And if the issue is ignored and have real importance then action must be taken. Here again you will need numbers. If say a very drastic decision is made to boycott a certain game then the effect must be seen.

If such a thing is launched it will be all-important to have all your ducks in a row. Professional people that are used to dealing with the media, who will be able to answer questions intelligently. A proper charter\constitution to ensure that the power will always be in the hands of the majority. Decisions must be explained and members must be consulted. This can be done by having votes cast via the net etc.

The launch of it will also be of huge importance. The media must spread the word to the general public to make them aware of something that will give them a voice. No longer will they be bullsh!tted and have the wool pulled over their eyes.

When this is established various other committees can be brought into life. Development of rural\PD Areas etc. Fixing club rugby. Proposals can be given to SARu and someone can stand behind them and get answers about when this will happen. No just give them a proposal and let it land in the dustbin.

In short, we need a body to tell SARU that the supporters aren't stupid and we won't be appeased by empty promises anymore. If there are corruption and incompetence, we won't stand for it anymore. We are watching


I totally agree with this comment "In short, we need a body to tell SARU that the supporters aren't stupid and we won't be appeased by empty promises anymore. If there are corruption and incompetence, we won't stand for it anymore. We are watching"

However I really doubt that the SARU or any other Union really cares what the supporters really think.

Bonesmasher Rugby Gear
"I was hoping to get acceptance from Ruggaworld to host an interactive wiki- and still is of the opinion that it is a site with an independent mindset.

It just seems that i have failed to convice the RW Board members of the possibilities of this issue."

Hi OO,

Love the way you've articulated your ideas.

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think it's a case of you having failed 'to convince the RW Board members of the possibilities of this issue'.

In fact, I, and I suspect everyone else, am/are four square behind the concept.

It's just getting the time to do it justice that worries me.

If there is anything I can do in terms of publicity etc., please let me know.

In the interim, I look forward to either myself or one of the others getting back to you shortly and apologise for the delay.
To all that have posted their comments

Thank You

I do appreciate it.

I will leave this thread for a while, as the primary place to post comments- lets say another two weeks- and then start the work on the next version of the Charter- incorperating as much of the additional ideas as possible.

I am of the opinion that the Charter should be hosted by a dedicated site- and will post any news here and on Ruggaworld.

Please note that the intention is to create a movement over time- to rush will be nice but I believe it will not be sustainable.

That should be able to free enough voluteers to add effort to the Initiative

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